BY Benjamin ClarkOctober 27, 2025
1 month ago
BY 
 | October 27, 2025
1 month ago

Trump's tense January 6 exchange with Pence exposed in notes

Donald Trump's final phone call with Mike Pence before the January 6, 2021, Capitol riot included a biting remark that has now come to light through the former vice president's own handwritten notes.

As reported by Daily Mail, these notes, revealed in Jonathan Karl's upcoming book 'Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America,' capture a heated exchange just an hour before Trump's 'Save America' rally speech, where the president pushed Pence to block the 2020 election certification and called him a 'wimp' for refusing.

That refusal, rooted in Pence's commitment to constitutional duty, set the stage for a day that would spiral into chaos as Trump supporters stormed the Capitol shortly after the rally.

Final Plea and Harsh Words

In the call, Trump made a last-ditch effort to sway Pence, insisting he was failing to protect the nation by not overturning the results. Pence's notes quote Trump saying, "You'll go down as a wimp," and adding, "If you do that, I made a big mistake five years ago."

It's hard to ignore the raw frustration here; Trump clearly believed Pence had the power to alter history, but the vice president's stand was firm, even if it meant personal scorn from his boss. This exchange reveals a rift not just of policy, but of fundamental loyalty under pressure.

Pence, for his part, held his ground with a response also noted in his writings: "I said we both [took] an oath to support + defend the Constitution." His words cut to the heart of the matter, suggesting that true courage lies in upholding the law, not bending it to political whims.

Rally Sparks Unrest

Following this tense conversation, Trump addressed supporters at the 'Save America' rally near the White House, urging them to march to the Capitol and "fight like hell" to preserve the country. Within two hours and fifteen minutes of his speech, hundreds of his followers breached the Capitol building, seeking to confront Pence and other lawmakers.

The images of that day, with rioters scaling walls and breaking windows, remain a stark reminder of how words can ignite action. While Trump called for peaceful protest in part of his speech, the fervor he stoked undeniably contributed to the violence that unfolded.

Tragically, the chaos led to at least five deaths, including four rallygoers and a Capitol Police officer who succumbed to a stroke. The aftermath left Pence vilified by some Trump supporters, with chilling reports from Reuters photographer Jim Bourg of hearing calls to hang the vice president as a traitor.

Pence's Notes and Legal Fallout

Pence meticulously documented the events of that day, notes which were intended as evidence in Special Counsel Jack Smith's investigation into Trump's actions surrounding January 6. However, with Trump's legal cases dismissed after his 2024 victory, these writings lost their immediate prosecutorial weight.

Still, they paint a vivid picture of a vice president caught between loyalty to a leader and fidelity to the Constitution. One can't help but wonder how history might view this moment, when a single decision became a lightning rod for national division.

Trump, meanwhile, has consistently denied derogatory remarks about Pence, stating at a gathering of religious conservatives in Nashville that he "never called him a wimp" and lamenting that Pence lacked the courage to act. This denial clashes with the firsthand account in Pence's notes, leaving a lingering question of whose memory holds the truth.

Reflecting on a Fractured Bond

The rift between Trump and Pence on January 6 symbolizes more than a personal falling-out; it underscores a deeper struggle over the integrity of democratic processes. For those of us who value the rule of law over populist fervor, Pence's stand, though isolating, appears as a rare act of principle in a storm of expediency.

Yet, the anger of Trump supporters that day, misdirected as it was at Pence, stemmed from a genuine belief in election fraud, a narrative Trump continues to champion. While the violence can't be excused, dismissing their frustration outright risks ignoring why so many felt unheard by the system.

Jonathan Karl's book lays bare these messy, human conflicts within Trump's inner circle, reminding us that governance isn't just policy, but people under pressure. As we revisit January 6 through Pence's notes, the lesson remains sharp: loyalty to country must outweigh loyalty to any one man, no matter the cost.

Written by: Benjamin Clark
Benjamin Clark delivers clear, concise reporting on today’s biggest political stories.

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